Tuesday, October 14, 2014

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Resources

A friend from Church Militant TV provided these links on the topic of no salvation outside the Church. Since the piece about extra ecclesiam nulla salus has been pushed back off the current feed by the Bear's comments on the Turkish seal show in Rome, here they are for your enjoyment.

Have you ever seen Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome? It's great, for that kind of movie. In it are some feral children who survived a plane crash when they were younger. They have tried to piece together their personal history and the history of their lost world, and they preserve it through the nightly "tell."

The Bear sometimes feels like one of those children. We gather together and preserve the faith in our little internet bands. We are as faithful as we know how to be, holding on to the unchanging past. Because you're never going to see stuff like this from any mainstream Catholic source. For them, it's all about ecumenism.





6 comments:

  1. Catholicism.org (Richmond,N.H) affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and so does the community of Fr.Leonard Feeney at Still River.
    I agree with them.

    However for them being saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire (refuted theologically) are visible exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They infer that these cases are physically visible to us to be exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Catholic Church for salvation.

    This is a subtle point.
    1.They deny that there are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is clear.
    2.Yet they will infer that Lumen Gentium 16 ( saved in invincible ignorance), NA 2,UR 3,LG 8 etc are exceptions to Tradition and in particular to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
    If these cases (UR 3,LG 16 etc) are exceptions then it is implied that these cases are visible and known to us in the present times.They would have to exist to be exceptions.They would have to be known to be exceptions.
    The Still River and Richmond N.H communities infer that hypothethical cases in Vatican Council II are defacto exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in 2014 for salvation.

    This same error is made by the SSPX and Michael Voris.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Rodney Pelletier,Simon Rafe and Michael Voris : error in premium programs Baptize All Nations,Moral Compass and possibly God’s Green Earth

    Rodney Pelletier,Simon Rafe and Michael Voris interpret the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 as saying that salvation is visible to us on earth and these deceased who are visible on earth, are explicit exceptions to all needing to convert into the Catholic Church in the present times.This is irrational and the stuff of fantasy.

    This error is there in all their premium programs including Baptize All Nations,Moral Compass and possibly the new program, God’s Green Earth.

    Michael Voris says outside the Church there is no salvation but he also means that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to outside the Church there is no salvation. So if he did not infer that all 28 of them working at Church Militant.Com can see the dead on earth who are exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Catholic Church, he would be rejecting the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257-1260 etc.

    The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 made a factual error and the Catechism of the Catholic Church instead of correcting it, affirmed the error.

    To suggest that there are known exceptions to the defined dogma on exclusive salvation, is heresy.It is a mortal sin. This heresy is now widespread in the Catholic Church. It has been overlooked by the popes, from Pius XII to Francis.-Lionel Andrades
    http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/topic/michael-voris-error-in-premium-programs/

    ReplyDelete
  3. There are hardline views that seem to discount the Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Much digital ink could be spilled. For example, how firm must the desire be, and must one be taking all reasonable steps to bring that desire to fruition? In any case, the Church is the visible and ordinary means of salvation. The (non-dogmatic) V2 Council muddied the waters for everyone in Lumen Gentium about what, exactly, constitutes the Church. The only safe bet is to get into the Ark.

    ReplyDelete
  4. The resources you have provided for extra ecclesiam nulla salus seem only for sedevacantists or traditionalists who interpret Vatican Council with an irrational premise, which results in a break with Tradition.

    Please do not place me in any of these groups.

    For me the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus since there are no such cases known in 2014.Period. It is as simple as that.

    Secondly, no magisterial document before the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 implies that these cases are visible to us.This error is made in the Letter of the Holy Office and then repeated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1257-1260).

    Even Vatican Council II does not state that invincible ignorance (LG 16) is a known exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or that these cases are known to us personally. We cannot meet any such person on the streets yet the traditionalists infer that these cases are known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    So for me LG 16,UR 3, NA 2 etc do not refer to explicit cases in 2014 and so they are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Neither are they exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.

    So it is possible to accept the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to the resources you have provided and it is also possible to accept the dogma in agreement with Vatican Council II (AG 7).

    Vatican Council II without the premise of being able to see the dead saved in invincible ignorance, a ray of the Truth(NA 2), elements of sanctificationa and grace (LG 6), imperfect communion with the Church (UR 3) is TRADITIONAL on other religions and Christian communities

    Any document which does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to the Church Councils, popes , saints and Fr. Leonard Feeney is traditional on other religions and Christian communities.

    None catholics need faith and baptism for salvation (AG 7) and Christians need Catholic Faith which include the sacraments and the Church teachings on faith and morals and the interpretation of the Scriptures (AG 7).
    Vatican Council II affirms extra ecclesiam nulla salus for me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So, I take it you do not believe in any "exceptions" to EENS. Not by blood, not by desire, not by invincible ignorance. Better minds than mine have debated this. I would say that there is a Plan A, and many have speculated about a Plan B (and C, etc.) If you're anywhere but in the Ark of the Church, you are in danger, and need to get in. As for LG, it doesn't speak about EENS at all, but seems to advocate a creeping boundary of the Church that encompasses Protestants (and everyone else, for that matter, except for lapsed Catholics). I would not look to LG for support for a strict interpretation of EENS! I don't pretend to know the final answer, just that Plan A is get into the Church, and that there have been reasonable theological speculations from ancient times that suggest those as yet unbaptized, such as catechumens and martyrs, or those with invincible ignorance, might be admitted into heaven. But anything other than getting into the Church is risky business, as I have always said.

      Delete
    2. So, I take it you do not believe in any "exceptions" to EENS. Not by blood, not by desire, not by invincible ignorance.

      Lionel:
      1.We do not know of any one in 2014 who will go to Heaven without the baptism of water.
      2.The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 wrongly inferred that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance were exceptions.

      Better minds than mine have debated this. I would say that there is a Plan A, and many have speculated about a Plan B (and C, etc.) If you're anywhere but in the Ark of the Church, you are in danger, and need to get in.
      Lionel:
      Only in the Ark of the Church is there salvation in 2014.

      As for LG, it doesn't speak about EENS at all,

      Lionel:
      Yes.It does not mention extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

      but seems to advocate a creeping boundary of the Church that encompasses Protestants (and everyone else, for that matter, except for lapsed Catholics).

      Lionel:
      This is an inference.This is inferred by the liberals. The text does not say this.
      Unfortunately even traditionalists infer this and so reject Lumen Gentium 8,14,16 and Vatican Council II 2.

      I would not look to LG for support for a strict interpretation of EENS!
      Lionel:
      Lumen Gentium refers to possibilities known only to God. They cannot be known to us humans in the present times. So it must not be inferred that hypothetical cases are visible to us.

      I don't pretend to know the final answer, just that Plan A is get into the Church, and that there have been reasonable theological speculations from ancient times that suggest those as yet unbaptized, such as catechumens and martyrs, or those with invincible ignorance, might be admitted into heaven.

      Lionel:
      Yes as a possibility. We do not know of any such case in the last 100 years.So these possibilities are not relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

      But anything other than getting into the Church is risky business, as I have always said.
      Lionel:Yes. I agree.

      Delete

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