Sunday, February 19, 2017

Same God as Islam, Again

Today, assembled Catholics were informed by their priest in the Bear's parish that we worship the same God as Islam.

This is stupefyingly ill-informed. In fact, one could not reach this conclusion in good will. It could only be preached by someone who has abandoned Christ and the Church and the Holy Trinity and replaced it with the idol of interfaith.

How does a Catholic priest get to this point? In this particular case, the priest is a big shot in ecumenism and interfaith. He travels the world for one conference after another. At some point, his identity, whether by pride, or ignorance, or wickedness, or - giving him the benefit of the doubt - error, creeped over the line that separates Catholics from everybody else.

Oh, by the way, there is such a line, and don't let anybody tell you any different. If you find yourself the last Catholic in the world, then be that.

There is a line between Catholics and everybody else. It is a line, not a wall. It is easy to cross, apparently. Priests cross it. Cardinals cross it. Even Popes cross it.

The Bear believes it is more important than ever for Catholics to live in their bubble.

And, if anyone needs to be reminded, Catholics do not worship the same God as Islam. You could not have the vaguest grasp of both religions and think otherwise. Whenever the Bear hears the phrase "three great Abrahamic religions" he reaches for his revolver.

48 comments:

  1. See Lumen Gentium 16. Your priest is only restating what VII proclaimed

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    1. That is not correct. The Latin is not the same as the English. If you are looking at the English from the website you might think that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. "In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, PROFESSING to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore THE one AND merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."

      I have put the problematic translation in caps.

      If we understand that the document is not talking about what Catholics believe here, but rather what Muslims (claim to) believe, then the document makes more sense.

      Muslims claim (profess) to hold to the Faith of Abraham. They do not. The document is not saying that they objectively do hold to the faith of Abraham only that they claim (profess) to.

      Now Muslims believe in one god. This is both something that they claim and something that is objectively true. They have a monotheistic belief system. That is GOOD. Now Islam is derived from Christian heresy so there are a few bits and pieces that Muslims believe about God that are objectively true. Is this enough to say that Muslims believe in THE One God? Or are the differences enough to say that they only believe in One God?

      In any event, LG 16 does not require a Catholic to profess that the one god of the Muslims is the same God that Catholics believe in. What is required is to acknowledge the degree of congruity.

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    2. That's just the problem with many of the Vatican II documents, they are ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways. Michael Davies called them time bombs. You are correct and that's how it should be interpreted, but do you really think ecumenical liberals like the Bear's pastor are going to interpret that way? Of course not.

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    3. True. They also contradict each other in a few important places.

      Much can be said, but there is no reason to concede the heterodox interpretation of VII. I say heterodox, because 1. name the devil 2. liberal isn't a bad word and it is time that we take it back. Bear's priest doesn't have a liberal position on ecumenism, but a heretical one. The liberal position is what got us the Anglican Ordinate.

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  2. Bear doesn't need to read anything. He's got Catholic instincts, and can smell heresy before heretics start to burn, which is really why they call him "Smokey."

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  3. Someone needs to tell that priest as charitably as possible that he is IN GRAVE ERROR, and his very soul is in danger. And like you Bear, I really don't care WHAT Vat. 11 says! Being long ago of the 'liberal Catholic' mindset and being led into truth and light, I as well can smell heresy 10 miles away! Guess it's kind of like being a 'recovering alcoholic', they can spot another one a mile away as they say.

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  4. Well, it's possible, but their 'religion' certainly makes it difficult, I wish priests wouldn't phrase it this way...or say 'Islam' anywhere near a tabernacle.

    On Friday I heard that the Tower of Babel was a 'nice story' that the Jews came up with for explaining all the different languages in the world. *sigh*

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  5. It is a popular thing to consider that differences do not cause meaningful separation between people. The goal for these people is not conversion and being conformed to truth, but rather being enlightened beyond the need for distinctions. Truth is unobtainable so the goal becomes that of accompaniment in subjective equity.

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    1. It is that there is no truth. OR rather, what we perceive as truth is rather a human construct that separates us from each other and ourselves. The goal of life is not truth but rather to elevate oneself beyond the need for such false constructs. Only then can we accompany each other towards the Great Mercy^TM.

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    2. Haha, thanks Pilate.

      I've never really thought about it but Pilate is probably the closest thing to an American liberal that there is in the Bible. He was totally fine with Jesus but didn't really wanna bother with keeping him from being murdered. You know, didn't want to get his hands dirty or anything.

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  6. Once again, I completely sympathize and emphathize with your experience. We got a lecture on forgiveness and the greatness of mandela. This from a 90+ yo priest who has to literally prop himself up against the pew when giving communion. Communion on the tongue without a paten is problematic.

    OTH, the concept of a bubble Catholis is absolutely contrary to everything our Lord taught us from simple parables about the city on the hill to the great teaching of St Paul. Your nail your foot to the floor analogy is better.

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    1. The city on the hill is enemy occupied territory, and they are broadcasting their propaganda 24/7. The Bear is long past worrying about fitting his observations into the Way Things Are Supposed to Be. We are at the point of "Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?" Honestly, he's on his own. That's fine for Bears. It's like when we were all trying to fit Jorge into the mold of an orthodox Pope. Is anyone still playing that game? You can't. Get over it. The Church (sigh, the one in Rome, with Jorge Bergoglio as the head) spouts nonsense all the time, and has for some time. I tune it out. In the unlikely event it ever reforms itself and teaches the truth again, I'll dial it back in.

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    2. There are those still playing that game, and they're gaslighting the rest of us in order to continue feeding at the trough.

      BTW, St. Benedict saw the necessity of being a bubble Catholic, and we're probably living in similar times. A whole community of Catholics have sprung up around the Benedictine Abbey in Clear Creek Oklahoma.

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    3. A lot of Benedictines are still solid. Bear would love to move Zoar to St. Meinrad in southern Indiana, but...

      "Gaslighting." What a great word. Used in some cases to attack interrogations. Wonder how many people know what it means and where it came from?

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  7. It's interesting that you bring this topic up, bear, because the ex-priest who was a major player in Vat II and responsible for the initial draft of Nostra Aetata, has admitted he hid his homosexuality during the council. LifeSiteNews just wrote an article on him here:
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/major-player-at-vatican-ii-confesses-to-concealing-homosexual-sex-life
    I can't say this enough, but Nostra Aetata needs to be wiped from the face of the earth...along with a good chunk of Vat. II.

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  8. PJM: the Church will get rid of the Nicene Creed before it will get rid of Nostra Aetate. Are you kidding me?

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    2. Yea, what was I thinking.

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  9. You have to be a deliberate Catholic these days. The first step is a personal Rule. The Benedictines have stood the test of time. Again with chant: once you master the basics, there's something about it that transports your heart to heaven. A sound Rule will keep you Catholic no matter what nonsense is going on elsewhere.

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    1. It has been my experience that if all one has is the LOTH, one will be fine. If you let your thought be with the rhythm of the LOTH, you have a fantastic moral an theological compass.

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    2. Agreed. The reason I like my four-week psalter from St. Meinrad best is that (a) it is designed to be sung with six tones, and (b) it has not been censored to protect the little snowflakes who might melt at some language in the psalms.

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  10. Muslims and Catholics do not worship the same God. Ask any Muslim if he worships the Blessed Trinity and he will unequivocally answer "No," or perhaps لا.

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  11. The Church at the highest level has adopted this lie - at Vatican II. It is a lie that contradicts every Church Father and Doctor of the Church. It is a lie that contradicts the teachings of the saints.

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  12. As usual, I learn and comprehend so much when I come to visit St. Corbinian's Bear! Lurker #59, thank you. Keep up the good work Bear; I am telling you - you are helping us get to heaven. That is a good work.

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    1. Well, the Bear would answer if you're going to Heaven, it is probably in spite of the Bear, but thanks!

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  13. Wouldn't be heart warming Bear if someone had the courage (or nuttiness) to stand up while the priest was giving his offensive sermon and yell B--L S--T. After all doesn't Vatican II encourage lay participation?

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    1. See answer below as to what the Bear has done. He does try to remember that the King is present no matter what some... poor misguided priest who is a product of an infamous seminary up north whose name escapes Bear.

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  14. Owl's Night Time Thought: LG 16 and the "Muslims worship the same God" and what is added gets talked about the most, but consider for a moment the beginning of LG 16. Pay attention to what is missing and what is ignored -- compare it to the scripture that is cited.

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    1. Fact 1: EENS is infallible dogma. Even if you wish to dispute this, the kind of goings on with Protestants and non-Christians has been unfailingly condemned by magisterial and other teachings at all times and in all places. Fact 2: Previous infallible dogma and magisterial teachings have been completely rejected by the Church sub silentio. Fact 3: The Church can thus reverse infallible teachings and other magisterial teachings. Fact 4: Vatican II (which the Bear knows you seem to be a bit of a fan of) encouraged all of this through numerous, lengthy and gaseous documents presenting putatively infallible teaching, as if any human being could possibly articulate precisely what propositions they are asserting . Fact 5. It just so happens that the changes we now see in the Church are in lockstep with the opinions and sensibilities of the Better Sort of Person of this world whose Prince is Satan. Opinion of Bear. He finds it curious than the Church happens to be failing at the same time and in the exact same way as every other Western institution. The West and the Church cannot exist apart from one another. A South American Pope is just the icing on the Fall of the West's cake.

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    2. Oh, Bear means everything's up for grabs. Wait around a few more years and your favorite vice will be legitimized.

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    3. I should send you the paper that I did once on EENS and the modification that it underwent in the 20th century.

      Post if you want me to dig it up.

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    4. Thanks, but getting into EENS more deeply than I have is something I don't have the energy to do right now. It is a can of worms, as you are well aware. It was just the first thing that came to mind. There are people living today who remember that you were not supposed to worship with Protestants. That was huge. Indifferentism and anything that smacked of it was severely condemned. All changed now. Like I said, weird how truth changes with the calendar nowadays.

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    5. Fact 3 doesn't follow from Fact 2. That people do not follow or teach what the law is, doesn't mean that the law has been reversed.

      Not all magisterial teachings are infallible. At one time there was a certain magisterial teaching about the crossbow.

      (start rant) In regards to VII, if I ever wrote a book, it would be "The Rights and Responsibilities of the Laity According to Vatican II". No one would read it. Too many people don't bother with VII because "it is icky". So what? Use it as a blunt cudgel. Don't let heretics have it to do what they want. It is ambiguous in places? SO? That means you can make it say what you want as well. The devil cannot make a single thing, only twist. All that is, is God's and God is very good at untwisting crooked paths. We are, by adoption, His sons, and creation awaits our untwisting of things. So don't accede a tool to the devil, but take it from him as it is not his. (end rant).

      Even if it wasn't the 100 anniversary of Fatima, Owl would say that nothing lasts. The forest is on fire, and has been so before his time. Sin abounds and the world spent 100 years growing lazy thinking that it could build a Tower of Babel called progress.

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    6. Hmmm... the Bear simply finds it strange that the Church does not necessarily teach the truth these days. And as someone whose professional life was spent drafting and interpreting documents, and having blown my share of smoke, I stand by my claim that it is not only difficult, but impossible, to make any sense out of, well, Lumen Gentium, for example. I know the defenses. I know that subsistit in has been clarified twice. I know that everybody is saved, except (1) lapsed Catholics (which strikes me as odd, and is going to have to be changed eventually) and (2) all those people the devil gets in the "oh by the way clause" that Ralph Martin has tried his best to pump up into a Really Big Deal After All. Owl, Bear has a couple of grand of Verbum software on his computer, and is not ignorant of these things. Vatican II got way out of hand (as everyone knows) and was hijacked the Rhine Alliance and the Arab interests. I am sure you have read The Rhine Flows Into the Tiber. V2 isn't some unknown bogeyman to me. The documents are a smokescreen for whatever.

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  15. Granted the Bible’s and Quran’s theologies are basically incompatible. However, if a Catholic and Muslim were to describe their God strictly based on Catholic and Muslim philosophies, they would describe God's attributes in similar ways. Such as: God is fully actualized and therefore unchangeable, uncreated and therefore without parts, eternal, infinite, unlimited, etc. In this sense you can reasonably argue they worship the same God.

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    1. mmm, yeah... as a lawyer, I could no doubt make a case that, mmm, sure, erm, they're the same God, except without the Jesus and Holy Spirit thing going on... and then some cleric would issue a fatwah on poor old Bear, like he doesn't have enough men with rifles stalking him during certain times of the year.

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    2. That's not quite so. Actually, Muslims do not believe that God is unchangeable; they believe he is a will unbound by anything, even his own nature, and thus can change in any way at any time, and similarly, that therefore created nature has no laws and can be changed at any time by an arbitrary act of will on the part of God. They also reject reason as a means of knowing God - after all, since there is no natural law and no immutable being, then there's nothing for reason to understand. Ratzinger made some very good points about this in his Regensburg address.

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    3. Elizabeth is quite correct. If one looks at the philosophical understandings, there is a vast lack of incongruity. Congruence exists only when you are looking at a limited set of fundamentals.

      This issue is best looked at as this question: Do the Jews and the Samaritans worship the same God? (Two belief systems that claimed to "profess the faith of Abraham") Jesus answers this directly. John 4:1-42.

      This should be applied to Muslims to understand how they relate to the Church. Their god is not their God.

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    4. God the Trinity is the only God that exists, so obviously belief in anything else is bound to be more dissimilar than similar to Christianity.

      However, it’s plain to see that Christianity has a lot similar to Islam. Monotheism, for one, which is no small thing when you look around at all the other religions. Also, no one disputes that Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abram and Hagar. So Muslims are worshiping the God of Abraham. More similarity: Christians and Muslims believe in prayer, the supernatural, good and evil.

      Where we part ways is the the idea of “God the Father,” because Muslims don’t believe in God’s begotten Son. And as Jesus said, the only way to the Father is through the Son.

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    5. Your wife is a woman, my wife is a woman. Since they are so similar in so many ways, your wife is the same wife as my wife.

      I don't think anyone would try such logic in matters of marriage. Everything is alike in some way. It is the ways that make them not alike that makes them useful. To say that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God is simply not true. There is a huge difference in having some similarities and being the same.

      In this case it is a lie, and a pernicious one.

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    6. That God is Father isn't the first way that Muslims part from Christians...they part long before you get there.

      Secondly, that Arabs are descendants of Ishmael is something that Muslims profess. Just because they profess it doesn't make it true. It is not. Some Arabs are some are not. It is like accepting Mormons believing that Native Americans are one of the tribes of Israel, it is fiction used to claim legitimacy.

      Speaking of Mormons, is the Mormon god, God? There are a lot of similar names, stories, and characteristics, but if you get down to brass tacks, the answer is no, the god that they believe in is not their God.

      Anywho, the easiest way for people to deal with this is Jesus "their god is not their God".

      If you don't then someone will be able to easily convince you that Brahman and God are the same. One is a fiction -- a half remembered memory of the one True God, a cobbled together story, or the twistings of the devil, take your pick-- the other exists in reality.

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  16. Fortunately, I don't attend a parish where such a claim would ever be made. But I think I have reached the point where if I encountered this at a Mass, I would stand up and very loudly contradict it on the spot, from the pews. And then leave.

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    1. The Bear has been known to growl loudly enough to turn heads (and he means for real growl) or even to get up on his hind legs and stalk out, but he cannot recommend that for humans.

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  17. Detecting anti-Christian error is my only superpower. Perhaps it is yours as well.
    I have recently heard it said that it is better to pray the Divine Office, that the LOTH (Liturgy of the Hours) has been watered down. This is a bit of a stumbling block for me, what does one trust in materials? I never feel I know.
    I have not read about living in a Catholic bubble yet, but here's where we are. We're done with these guys. As in, done.

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    1. Kathleen, my dear, your questions about the LOTH have been answered by the Benevolent Overlord of the Woodlands.

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  18. Uh oh. The Bear seems to have somehow changed into a human being. This is awkward.

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